Thoughts on Glacier-Howser meeting
June 26, 2009 by David R Pacey
Filed under Business, Energy, Environment, Freedom, Letters
Thoughts on the Invermere EAO meeting June 25/09.
Attending the Environmental Assessment meeting Thursday evening as part of the public process necessary for the approval or denial of permits was interesting to say the least.
The Axor Group and the EAO, both provincial and Federal agencies, were in attendance along with about 50 + protest individuals, both local and imported. Unfortunately, this meeting coincided with the awards ceremony at the high school so a very limited number of local citizens ( 15 ? individuals) who were not part of the protest group, were able to attend. It is also possible that the citizens of Invermere and area are not that concerned about this particular project could be another explanation.
A large contingent of protesters were imported from the Golden area to make their views known. These folks tended to dominate the later part of the Q & A session with their concerns about the overall process. Unfortunately, the leader of this group, when speaking before the microphone, threatened and implied dire consequences should this or any other such project be approved. Personally, I found his comments to be offensive and over the top for any rational conversation or discussion. He might be well advised to publicly apologize to all concerned for his inappropriate remarks.
The meeting was very civil in these proceedings in contrast to the gong show that apparently happened in Kaslo a few days ago over this same topic – with the exception of the above individual. I noticed that the majority of questions or concerns were in relation to the approving process systems as a whole rather than the specific project. Also, questions as to where our electric consumption and/or sale is heading could not be answered in this venue. Unfortunately, there was a great lack of focused quiry on the part of the protest group relative to the specific project for which this meeting was being held. An opportunity was lost by the protest group without question.
While the protest group in attendance vigorously voiced concern about the public input process, it is very evident that the entire Environmental Impact Assessment system is in part, specifically designed for just that – public input. At least three screens from the overheads did emphasis that very fact contrary to what the protest group wanted people to hear or read. The fact that these public meeting are held and that the ability to submit written ideas and / or concerns directly to the EAO makes the public input factor self evident. It might well be that the decisions do not comply with the protest groups’ concerns, but to suggest that there is no public input is simply wrong.
In fair comment about the proponents, they had obviously done their home work and had come up with some innovative solutions to some of the concerns expressed or anticipated. One concern was in relation to a swath being cut over the Purcells and through some old growth forest and the resultant impact on animals movement and the human impact with guns and ATV’s should people have road access through that area. Axor anticipates having all construction being controlled through helicopter access, and having long strings of power cable over wide spans of gullies and vales to eliminate the need for vegetative removal.
This technique would eliminate the potential of 4X4’s and ATV’s accessing this Stoddard Creek area and the subsequent hunting of the area that would occur. Another agreement has apparently been established to locate power line alignment over some private and previously logged area to reduce the impact of swath logging.
Personally, I found the answers and explanations relative to impact and mitigation for fish and other organisms in the affected streams to be weak. I would suggest to Axor and the EAO, that this mitigation factor be improved significantly if this water diversion project should be approved in any manner. For instance, a fish hatchery with attendant employment in the area would probably go far in helping improve the entire project and the West Kootenay area as a whole.
Another long term concern that I have is for both the funding and time frame for monitoring of stream flows and temperatures with any follow up mitigation or cessation of activities. I also found the system to enforce such compliance to be extremely ineffectual. This too I feel could be vastly improved on the part of the proponent and/or the EAO.
Submitted by
David R Pacey
Radium Hot Springs
I guess Glacier-Howser has become the poster child of unwanted IPPs.
Undoubtedly there are environmental organizations that are against this project, but I doubt that there are 1100 members of environmental organizations in all of West Kootenay. Many of the people who came to the Kaslo meeting were obviously just concerned people who wanted to express that concern. The fact that the turnout was so large and that those who came were ovewhelmingly in disagreement with the project does not speak well for the proponents.
Since when is it acceptable to paint the majority in a democracy as ‘protestors’? If such a huge number of people want the Glacier-Howser area left undisturbed, why does the developer not gracefully accept the will of the majority? Do they really think they have the public’s support? Or is it just a case of not intending to take no for an answer? Kind of sounds like bullying by the developer.
Sure they are following the provincial guidelines – but when have you ever known such things not to be skewed in favor of profit and against all that is good and right and true? The kind of business we should be supporting is the kind where profit and what is good and right and true are one and the same, where they work together not against each other. Business needs to learn some limits and to cultivate some restraint. Profit and development cannot be endless and unlimited.
Contrast this project that is bulldozing its way over everything, to the IPPs west of Golden — where the developer has taken a much different attitude. They have the support of nearly everyone, including the same MLAs and environmentalists that are against Glacier-Howser. Think about that. It is all in how you conduct business.
David, you talk like only those from Invermere are the good guys and the rest are ‘imported’ — but this was a regional meeting about a regional issue.
In this particular case, Yes they were imports Mi Kai. Golden, Kimberley and possibly from the lower mainland as well as the West Kootenays were part and parcel of the protest group.
There is no doubt but that the meeting was stacked with protesters, even our ineffectual MLA admitted that the majority of Invermere residents were attending the awards ceremony at the high school that evening. Again, he gave a very rousing speech but said little – again.
With the NDP repudiating and reneging on their pre election stance relative to IPP’s, in other words, now they say no longer are they going to support a moratorium, then were does that leave the ney sayers? Where does that leave the protesters but left hanging on a wind turbine I would suppose.
And yes, one of the leaders from Golden did imply in a very threatening manner, ” dire consequences” should this project be approved. And yes, it was a threat. Period. Set piece.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not convinced that this project is well thought out. I’m not convinced that all the issues have been addressed by any manner. But if the process is such that we as society do not like the results of the process, then maybe the target of upset should be towards just that – the process. We as a responsible group of people do not degenerate into the Golden boy however ardent he might be in his convictions. His comments though stirring, were totally wrong footed.
Ah, David… I expect that by “dire consequences” it was not a threat of action but a warning of how we might all suffer the consequences of such a project. That is an inherent threat that has always been there and it would seem that it was merely being given voice.
If some IPPs are good and some are bad, and the NDP supports some and not others – then a moratorium does not make sense. What makes sense is a case by case review.
Since there is no effectual means for the concerned public to have the bureaucratic process of approval changed – probably the only route available is for protestors to pressure those businesses who are taking advantage (and benefitting from) the skewed process that these people want changed. They seem to be taking the only available path. That does not reflect well on our so-called ‘democracy’.
Nice try Mi Kai but totally wrong again.
The man threatened the company and those at the meeting with “Dire Consequences” if the process allowed the project to go through.
You were not there obviously. You don’t know.
So how do you feel qualified to comment on the meaning of any thing from that meeting to which you were not a party.
We were there. We saw his body language, we heard his words and understood exactly what he was saying. He was threatening all who would dare to accept this proposal. Our Golden boy of the protest group does not need your platitiudes and rewriting of a history to which you were not a part.
Sorry Mi Kai but you really are very very wrong to try and put your spin doctor image on something to which you are not aware.
The Golden boy should apologize for his actions and his words.
Well there Mr Dave. The Golden Boy should not apologize there is a little thing call freedom of speech. Who is to apologize to anyways? Some Rich guy from the other side of the Country that want to make money off destroying our rivers and forest and the people of BC or to you. The Company should apologize to us for proposing such a Divesting project. Maybe Dave should do some research on the whole IPP issue and he might under stand were the The Golden Boys passion is coming from.
Witman
Thanks Witman but no matter how a person cuts an idea apart, a threat is a threat. Passion is one thing but to degenerate into uttering threats, that is totally unacceptable.
On your other note regarding a rich guy from back east making monies, you too can make monies any where in Canada. That is what our entire life and economy is about. Just because you and others don’t want this particular project to proceed, is not justification to deny any one the right to try. It does not deny Golden kid the right to protest.
What I personally find more concerning, is the few that make apologies for those uttering threats. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech in any manner, the entire EAO process is 100% about freedom of speech. Itwas at this very public forum hosted by both the proponent and the EAO, where the golden baby cried so much and uttered his threats.
Strikes me as an infintile 14 year old not getting his way and then stomping his foot. Tends to minimize the man immensly.
Using ‘passion’ as an excuse for uttering threats, is a rationalization that supports further threatening behaviour. Threats subvert freedom of speech by intimidating those with other points of view.
I attended this public information meeting and chose to immediately confront three different people who started cat calling and trying to shut the meeting down right off the bat with shouts of “how do we get you out of town!”
My experience of the so-called ‘meeting’ was that the opponents of IPP’s were there to shut down the meeting and prevent the dissemination of public information…Just like what was done in Kaslo.
The fact that our MLA was a member of such tactics, I found shocking.
The only thing the opponents of IPP’s proved to me was that hooliganism is on the rise in East and West Kootenays; and that citizens should wake up and stand up against such threatening tactics which amount to social bullyism.
Mary Ann – while I agree with you in a generic way, in this particular case how are people who feel they are excluded by an inaccessible ‘public’ process going to get their say in? It is clear that local control of such projects has been made effectively null, just a sham that calls itself ‘consultation’. But it obviously is not, and the people who have resorted to interrupting such ‘consultation’ perhaps have no other functional alternative but to disrupt. Were they included in the process I’m sure their attitude would be quite different.
If the process has a problem and no one wants to talk about it, then I think active public resistance is an appropriate means to make one’s point.
Like you, generally I am not in favor of obstruction when discussion is an available option – but when it is not, then obstruction becomes valid in its own right. … unless we maybe stop pretending this is a democracy so people won’t have such expectations of being included in decision making. In that regard I think places like China have got it right – at least the rules of the game are clear
How on Earth can you or anyone else advocate and excuse intimidation, harrassement and outright threats by protestors in a public process under the guise of “Oh we cannot access the process”.
Whenever bullying occurs in our school system or the business world, every one is appalled and condems the bully. When a protestor does his or her bullying and harrassement, people like you make excuses and rationalizations.
Not very consistant Mi Kai. You are just another that seems to be advocating attitudes that degenerate into anarchy which is the long term result of your attitude.
The EAO process is 100% public input in spite of your concerns. The protestors missed the boat completely in Inverermere in their passion for intimidation. It was worse in Kaslo. The EAO process is 100% public input plus the proponents and the government agencies involved both provincial and federal.
Look at their concerns and understand how they missed the boat. They were asking about 1/ sales of energy to the USA, not in the purview , 2/ general power consumption, not in the purview, 3/ wind farms, not in the purview, 4/ how California views IPP’s, not in the purview. And on and on and on.
They missed the boat and here you are making excuses because they , the protestors, could only resort to infintile intimidation and threats. And you are making excuses.
Sorry Mai Kai, but threats and intimidation are just public bullying and you and others are trying to make excuses and justification for same.
There is no justification for that attitude in public or in schools.
david – Threats and intimidation is what the government does every day. They are the archetypal bully, by definition. It is even taught in the schools (as that is what schools do). While you say that the bully is those who protest, I say it is what they are protesting against.
I will not get into the twisted box of weird thinking they call fair and open public consultation, other than to say it is not what it claims to be, but just a tool for manipulation. The whole ‘democracy’ thing is a sham.
Again Mi Kai you are so wrong about society – it is frightening.
Governments teach bullying in schools? No government teachs Lee, teachers teach.
Are you saying that teachers are teaching bullying and then slapping the wrist of those that bully? Get a grip on reality – please.
I never said that ” the bully is those who protest”, you are saying that. If a person protests, there is no issue there. There is an issue however when someone threatens as the Golden infintile did in Inveremere at the EAO public session forum which is what we are talking about.
He who threatens is classed as just that, an infant in his attitude. The Golden rep for the Canadian Coalition was just that, infintile in his threats. Passionate?yes, animated ? yes, rational? marginal, threatening? absolutely.
Bullying by just following his training I am sure, yes, and he has been called on his actions.
But again, you were not there and have zero call for input with your first hand lack of knowledge.
We were there. We saw the actions. We saw the bullying. We saw and heard the threats. You were missing in action.
If you truely think that democracy is a sham, then I guess all politicians should resign and our world can be run by referrendum? If we run by referrendum and all politicians resign, I would suggest that our local MLA should lead the way.
He is the only one calling for a referrendum on every thing. He is trying to abdicate from the reason he was elected which was to make decisions.
david, Here is an example of what I mean by a sham. At Axor’s Kaslo meeting, of the 1100 and some who attended there was a small group of protestors. However, the majority of people who attended were there to ask questions. Those questions were directed to both Axor and the Ministry. Some of them were well thought-out, such as how would environmental compliance by monitored by the Ministry, and what were Axor’s options if it turned out the public did not want the project. In all, only about 20% of the questions asked were answered. The remaining 80% were met with silence, including the one about compliance (actually they said they didn’t know). So how is that for ‘consulting’ the public. Pretty selective – hearing only what they want to hear. Does not sound very genuine to me.
They will probably now report only on the questions they wanted to answer, saying that everyone there thought the project was great. But that won’t be true, now will it?
I want to thank David for his comments on the meeting, I found them informative. I would like to point out that the term “imports” used to describe other British Columbia residents implies that these people should have no interest in these going’s on and therefore should have no say. All British Columbia residents and proerty owners should be heard on these matters!
Come on David calling people from up the valley (Golden) imports is just silly. Where does the local line end, Radium, Brisco, Parson? If we’re from BC we’re locals. Uttering threats on a microphone I agree is just plain stupid. Unfortunately locals feel threatened by the IPP’s and with good reason. We love where we live it’s the best place in the world. Salmon used to run all the way up the Columbia river, but will never ever return. Now start putting IPP’s on all of BC’s river systems and disaster is inevitable. I know we’re not going to have IPP’s on every river in BC but these companies would if they could. Once they build them they won’t take them down. Once the IPP’s are built how will the locals, including bears, fish, otters and even people all the way from Radium benefit? You seem like an intelligent fellow maybe you could have asked a couple questions. Represent some of the people in your community. People who don’t know what questions to ask. Nuff said, Peace
I have read where undergrounding power lines is now becoming more popular in Europe as the costs between tower to tower lines and undergrounding lines is narrowing. The use of undergrounding is seems to be restricted to fairly short distances such as a few kilometers or more. It may not be practical to do this on the Kaslo line which is about 36 miles long. They are doing this in heavily urbanized areas and areas where the scenic values are great. I think people on both sides of this issue should investigate the pros and cons of this project to see if this is practical in this application. In areas where there are a lot of payers for electricity the effect on the individual power bill is affordable from the literature that I have read on the internet. In the past undergrounding high voltage powerlines has been a multiple of tower to tower construciton costs.
If there are no roads to be constructed which would hunters access to the areas near the power lines then I assume maintenance would have to be by helicopters. That being the case then there would be not a requirement for roads for underground power lines. In our area i have seen 80 to 100 meter wide swaths of cut over land. Axor says that will not be the case for their proposal as the towers will stand in the middle of the forest or other types of ground cover. There are ways where ditches to not even need to be dug with the latest in equipment. This equipment uses tunnel boring technology to accomplish its task. I assume there are plenty of tech wise people in your area which could contribute to this debate and come up with an optimal solution. There are almost never any perfect solutions so it is impossible to make everyone happy. I think before people contribute to this forum that they study the internet about High voltage undergrounding. Perhaps solutions that no one has thought of could be generated this way.
Larry, Maybe you should get out a local map. I believe the proposed line would be some 91 km from the Glacier-Howser station to the Invermere sub-station. Glacier-Howser is not much closer to Kaslo than to Invermere. The closest population center is Meadow Creek at the north end of Kootenay Lake. From there you go east on forest roads toward Invermere to get to Glacier Creek and Howser Creek. Kaslo is actually on the west side of Kootenay Lake about a half hour’s drive south of Meadow Creek.
Hi,
I just thought I should set the record straight being the “Golden boy” that is in question. I did not ever say the words “dire consequences.” What I actually said was that if this project was to go ahead that there would be “direct action, guaranteed.” I believe in non-violent direct action and this will be what is presribed, blockades, letters, social activism, and any way imaginable non-violently to stop this project. We are already in talks with direct action trainers to have a direct action camp this summer in Golden. This is a social and economic concern when we look at such projects. People are already lining up on both sides of the Kootenays to blockade this project. I believe this needs to be addressed because this will cost tax payers money to police, prosecute and incarcerate citizens. We have been fighting over 24 projects in the Golden area and we have been monitoring the Glacier Howser project for over a year now. If you would like info on ruin-of-the-river IPP’s in BC I suggest you view videos at http://www.saveourriverssociety.ca
It is most informative and Dave particularly should view the videos. Unfortunately through Bill 30 the provincial government has removed any ability to turn these down locally through town councils or regional districts and the enviornmental assessment has only turned down one of these projects because of First Nations intervention so many people including the MLA felt that the process was a sham.
The Council of Canadians in Golden has done it’s best to inform the public on what is going on. In 2008 we held over 10 3 hour informative discussions on IPP’s in 6 different communities including Invermere and Kimberley. We are informed, we live in this valley and we are not “imports,” unlike Axor from Quebec.
I would never apologize for what I said, particularly since the majority of the crowd agreed with me by applauding very, very loudly. This is a popular issue and in the 9 hours or so of the environmental hearing at all three meetings not one person stepped up and said this project is a good idea. That means 9 hours in 3 different towns all had the same answer. This is what democracy looks like. If this project goes through, it is fascism clear and simple, business colluding with government using an authoritarian system ie police to ensure that the environment will be degraded and wildlife areas will be diminished for private profit.
The Council of Canadians believes in public ownership of our resources to ensure benefit to the larger community. We do not take any money from business or government so we have a free voice to say what we think. At the event I delivered a message from over 60 concerned Golden citizens and that message is “Our Rivers Are NOT For Sale.” Please don’t spread falsehoods David. Thank you Mai Kai Lee for sticking up for me in my previous absence.
We are not just complaining, we do have alternatives to ruining the backcountry and our rivers ie community owned geothermal energy projects that we have been working on for over 6 months now. If you would like to learn more we are presenting to the Invermere council on July 14th at 7pm on Binary Geothermal Energy.
Sincerely,
Trevor Hamre
President
The Golden Chapter of the Council of Canadians
http://www.canadians.org
I’m back in town now Trev
Sorry for not responding sooner but not around could not respond.
Therefore: As you say, this is what democracy looks like ???? I don’t think so Trev.
Democracy looks like folks talking not threatening. Democracy is electing officials at either the municipal or provincial or federal levels making decisions. Not what our MLA wants to do but abdicate his responsibilities and try to have a referrendum on every thing. Every thing that he cannot and has not accomplished for the Columbia Valley.
Democracy is going out and becoming well informed. It is not scare tactics – your words ” Our rivers are NOT for sale.” That is just scare tactics on your part to make the public think the big bad booggy man Mr. USA is taking over Canada !!! Give us a break please. If you want to protest about something and have an ounce of credibility, use facts not scare tactics and lies like this tired old one.
Personally , I do not agree with this particular project – Glaicier Howse – but not for the supposed reasons you were spewing. Coming from Quebec, so what??!!. It makes no difference. Lot’s of money Good bring em on. This province needs investments to employ the young and pay for your roads and hospitals.
If you maintain, Rivers not for Sale, it simply shows how much you don’t know about the public trust system we have here which is so different to the USA. It shows your ignorance of the Free Trade Agreement which prohibits the sale of water. These are internationally recognized and valid legal treaties with a foreign country USA.
Don’t use lies Trev. Don’t use scare tactics. If your cause is just or right, then it can fly on it’s own. To stoop to lies, scare tactics, bullying and threats, it just demeans yourself Trev. But then your threats speak for themselves no matter how you try to do your above words smithing.
And you do then show as ….. infintile.
Wow, I thought your ranting about me was infintile but hey, you have the right to your opinion, and so do we. I was carrying a message from 80 well spoken and well informed people in Golden. If you chose to attack me, know that you are attacking our entire group’s opinons, not just my own.
Look up NAFTA and water and you will find a clause in the ability to sell water to the US if it is not “pristine”. These river projects actually remove the “pristine” protection enshrined in NAFTA and water. Do your own research before you rant.
The attack on our back country and our environment is the real threat. 25 IPPS in the Golden area are proposed. 80 in the columbia valley. This is rediculous and destructive to our environment and our way of life in the kootenays. What about tourism? How will it impact that?
Money isn’t everything to me, but to you it obviously is. I believe that some things are sacred, you obviously do not.
The liberal Bill 30 removes our local right to say no to these projects. You don’t think that is a concern?
You were at the meeting, how come nobody spoke up for these projects? Why didn’t you? Every single person that spoke condemned them for not being thought out properly. That is democracy in action. This project should be thrown out by the environmental assessment, but it will not be. It’s just got to figure out how to mitigate some of the impacts and then it will be back.
I wanted to give the company a clear message of what they would be dealing with if they came here. It wasn’t a threat, it was a legitmate warning so they woud know that people here won’t abide by what they are ramming down our throats.
Finally, Dave, if you don’t like these projects, why are you attacking me? SERIOUSLY, you slammed me a half dozen times on a fictional debate about that I threatened “dire consequences” to the company. Not even an apology for getting it wrong, just a, “I don’t care what you say, you are still infintile” Dude whatever, I hope the CVN bans you from writing on their website for your defamation of my character!
By the way, what am I lying about? I’d like to hear that, you didn’t mention what it was.
Back in town again Trev baby
What where / are you lying about ? Read the comment above!!!!
Sale of water? Not in the cards?
Big bad boogy men from the east coming to steal our streams?
25 in Golden and 80 in the Columbia’s ?
Scare tactics and lies is all Trev.
The sale of water in bulk is not in the cards
Money from the east west, north or south? Nobody cares as long as we get more power to keep our lights on.
Jobs being generated. I think that is good but you would stop; that maybe?
25 and 80, they are proposed. Big deal man ! That means that 80 different folks see an opportunity to help make jobs, money, power, infrastructure etc etc.
Will they all succeed ? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Look at the current result of the Glacier Howse project. So far stopped. Not because of railing against the Columbia River Power treaty but for the reason the EAO hearings were called. In this case it had every thing to do with the environment. Not threats, not inuendos, not word games, not griping about the other 80 potential porjects.
And that is what you don’t understand in it’s most simplistic basis Trev. The EAO is not there to hear you rant against the system or talk about the other 80 potential projects. You are at the EAO hearing to discuss concerns about the environment, read environment – ENVIRONMENT in relation to that particular project.
When I spoke to the EAO, wrote to the EAO, each commnent was in relation to the fish and the ENVIRONMENT. Read the name for the EAO and understand, that all they can comment on or influence things is from the Environmental perspective.
Re learn your tactics Trev. You are loosing it.
PS Nothing I have ever said had anything to do with your supposed 80 well spoken individuals. Every thing is in relation to how you have comported yourself in the public arena. Don’t try that sad excuse for changing the subject Trev, This has been about you.